00:00:02 Speaker 1
The Institute of Internal Auditors presents all things internal audit in this episode. Carrie Blakeman talks with Doris Miles about why influence can be more powerful than authority in internal auditing. Myles shares lessons from more than 20 years leading audits across global organizations and mission driven institutions.
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Emphasizing relationship mapping. Knowing your audience, storytelling, and building trust well before an audit begins.
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So could you tell us a little bit about how your leadership has changed maybe some different global influences or cultural influences to get you to where you are today?
00:00:44 Speaker 3
OK, awesome. Yes. So this topic you know very near and dear to my heart because as anyone would know, coming up in your career, you don't start off being, you know, the head of a group or the leader of a group. So you these are all skills that develop overtime. And so when you talk about.
00:01:01 Speaker 3
About my leadership style, I would say it's evolved over the years. Early in my career I was very technical, you know, like, you know, I got to dot the IS and cross the T's and make sure you know everything is is perfect. And I probably didn't always focus so much on.
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How best to influence or to get to the end of a conversation with someone by connecting? However, I I'm very fortunate in this area because I've always been one that could connect with.
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People. And so I think as I've evolved as a leader from working with companies that are global, working with people that are in, say, India from Brazil to the US and Europe and all of those countries have different aspects of how you interact.
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That makes you know engagement like so important and how you connect. And I've evolved as, as I've gotten old.
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They're more experienced.
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So with that, when most people think of influence and you mentioned it a bit, you know getting to the end of a conversation to have shared goals and to have met those shared goals. So what do you think that looks like in the context of internal audit leadership and how may it be different from some traditional authority that people may think of in their culture?
00:02:28 Speaker 3
OK, well, I'll say you know and and I said this before, but I I think I've been very fortunate because I I've always been a a people person, but internal audit for many, many, many years, they've been seen as like the police, you know and stakeholders and management. They dealt with us because.
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Not that we had a a big stick or the authority so to.
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Big, but they weren't always inviting us to the table. They didn't always want us to be part of their team and so influence it's really how we change that perception. And in my opinion, it's getting people to, you know, help solution because they believe in what you're trying to do, not because.
00:03:13 Speaker 3
They have to or because you know if they don't do this, you know the board is going to be down their throat. I couldn't honestly say, you know, you hear a lot of talk about being this trusted advisor who adds value, not, you know, nobody wants to be that person who is the critical one. I'll find your mistakes, you know.
00:03:32 Speaker 3
It's it's a shift in how we operate and I I've I've just been very fortunate to be part of companies that have always been really big on relationship building. And I will tell you that's one thing at Saint Jude, we are very intentional about is relationship mapping building those relationships because at the end of the day.
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You know, a lot of people who see audit as trusted advisors instead of compliance policing, they're going to see the impact that we can add, not just to their department but to the institution. So I think that's the shift.
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For me.
00:04:11 Speaker 2
I love that and I love that term relationship mapping. Could you give us an example of that? And then thinking of it in terms of also as you're preparing for your different meetings, maybe with the audit committee or the board or senior management and how it may all tie together?
00:04:28 Speaker 3
- And I I think they do kind of all tied together. I'll maybe start with a little bit about talking about like when you think.
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Of your board presentations or or things like that. It's not just about like you presenting findings or issues or things like that. You're you're trying to resonate with these stakeholders and meet them where they are. So you need to understand the business risks, their issues, their struggle.
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And in order for you to do that, that's not something you can just all of a sudden have a meeting and let me talk about all your risks. So you know, we can show you how we do things, you know, in internal.
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On it. But that's where that relationship mapping being intentional. You know, having conversations, you know, throughout the year with different stakeholders. So you understand the business. So when you understand the business you already have built those relationships. And so when you have to have a crucial conversation, you know this individual.
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You know the stakeholder and they know the value that you're bringing. So it's it's kind of different. I'll, I'll just add you because I jumbled all the relationship mapping in there. It's like you can't just start a relationship when you need to, you know, have that crucial conversation, but it starts a long time before that.
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I know for me when you are presenting issues to a board or to key executives or board members, it's intimidating. And so a lot of times, you know, we're so into the details of, you know, look at this control breakdown, look at what I found, but it's reframing it.
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So that you're speaking the language that the business understand you're talking about risks that.
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Resonates with them and you know this because you've already established, you know, a relationship with them. You know what's going on in their area. I want to share a particular something that just stuck in my head and it's it has stuck with me for a long time. But early in my.
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Career my CFO.
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Challenged me about my risk assessment components and specifically he he called me out on not listening to the earnings calls because he said the earnings calls is where we talked about the top risks that the company was facing and I was guilty.
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My team was guilty, but that to me is what we're talking about here.
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I was not talking about the risk that was most important. I had a very limited lens. I never made that mistake again. But those are things that, you know, looking back on it, not understanding the risks that are most important. It's going to mess with how you connect and what you're able to influence.
00:07:21 Speaker 2
Thank you for sharing that example. I love when we're able to share very tangible examples to everyone.
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Especially in this profession, because everyone's, you know, experience is different. So I will be using that, you know anonymous example though in the future yes. But I really appreciate that and and the vulnerability you just shared there. So Doris, what are some common communication?
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Anonymous.
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Mistakes that you've either seen in your experience or maybe on your team and have had to coach or mentor a little bit when trying, when those people are your you yourself are trying to influence leadership and or senior management.
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I would definitely say without a doubt my team I've seen this.
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Is that we auditors sometimes we tend to drown people with data instead of giving them a clear, you know, compelling narrative. And I would also say, I know you said the one thing, but I I have to say that sometimes auditors don't know their audience. And so you're trying to.
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To share with someone how the sausage is made, and it's really not necessary, I'd say those are the biggest mistakes I see.
00:08:38 Speaker 2
Yes, I've heard that quite a bit in talking to many other CAE's and audit committee members, so I'm glad that you brought up that point.
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So maybe to stay on the point a little bit of how you are working with your team and maybe professional development that you're trying to, you know, coach them in or say this is a really great area that you should focus on. What are some of those I like to call them essential skills or soft skills that you think are most underdeveloped?
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In the profession, that's up and.
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Coming.
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Number one, it goes with what I said before is we talked about knowing your audience and knowing, you know, like who you're talking to. Teams are always great at the technical aspect of what they do, but their presence doesn't always show up. The confidence. I've lacked confidence, you know.
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And of course it goes back to what we talked about in earlier questions about those relationships. So they're not always intentional about building those relationships because they're stuck all in the data, you know, but you know, you have to kind of master those things so.
00:09:48 Speaker 3
Work in progress.
00:09:50 Speaker 2
If you have any other thing, yeah.
00:09:51 Speaker 3
Please share. Well, I I just wanted to build on that. I think sometimes auditors, we're not and I'm I'm gonna always say we because I've been there myself, but we're not always self aware. Like when we're not showing up in a way that helps people understand like why are we here? You know? Why are we part of this committee?
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And that's something that I stress with my team about being concise, making sure you know your audience, being confident, you know, not.
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Sharing too much about, you know, the details, but I think it evolves like you allow your team to kind of step into some of those big meetings and present when it's low stakes, of course. So that they kind of see how it works. So when they're in those high stakes moments, they can show up because you've you've had these conversations with them.
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4.
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Just building on that, I think I'm just on a roll right now and and this is one of the things I stress is telling the story. You know, a lot of times we're in the data. We're so focused on the details and we want you to know like this important thing, but you have to kind of meet people where they.
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Are and bring them along the journey with you so working on that storytelling you know will help them build that confidence.
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That they need so that they understand their audience more and then they can be adjust and they can be dynamic and show up the way that they really should be showing up for the business.
00:11:27 Speaker 2
Yeah. Thank you for that. I love the example, especially thinking back to when I started an external auditing and wanting to go to client meetings.
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And you know, going along with the partners. So I love that you are bringing your staff when appropriate to the meeting so they can see what it's all about because it can be very intimidating meeting in front of senior management and a board. So I love, I love that you're doing that. One of the things.
00:11:55 Speaker 2
That had kind of come up when we, you know, we're thinking about the podcast is you've LED audit functions through times of transformation. And so to maybe kind of transition to that.
00:12:07 Speaker 2
Where have you kind of had to to balance the need for giving a lot of detail, but then also, you know when you're presenting back to management and not having that. So could you talk maybe about a process or what you go through in your mind when you're talking to an IT team about transformation and what that looks like for you?
00:12:26 Speaker 3
- Well, it's like I look back on some of the most, you know, memorable the biggest mile markers of my career.
00:12:36 Speaker 3
And the successful times and moments I I did very similar things and I think preparing for those meetings is kind of like an art. You know, you don't just show up, you you have to prepare. So I think if I if I boiled it down to like 3 things.
00:12:57 Speaker 3
And I hate to just keep reiterating this point is like really knowing my audience. So you need to understand the priorities and the concerns, tailor your presentation to address like the specific things that they are most focused on.
00:13:14 Speaker 3
Not the minutiae, not the the details. Again, knowing your audience, there is a time and a place for that, but do your homework. If someone wants to do a double click, have that information ready and available, or let them ask and then you know you provide that as needed. But.
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Sometimes you know you.
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To be able to adjust in the moment, the second thing, I'd say that you know, we have to make sure that we're landing is. So what no one cares about the laundry list of open audit issues. If they don't understand the risk associated with those. So again.
00:13:55 Speaker 3
You know, if you're thinking about your audience, what does this audience need to focus on? Not this list of just open issues, but why it's important so keep the.
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Conversation focused on what matters most, what risk may be an issue for the institution, or what risk do we need to address so that they can make better decisions. And then of course, it's practice, practice, practice. You know, you don't go into these meetings not prepared.
00:14:26 Speaker 3
And early in my career, I remember when I started presenting to the board.
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I asked for feedback and some people you know may not, you know, be self aware or they may think I'm nailing it every time I did not think that I wanted to know. Like give me some feedback. What? What can I do better? You know, what do I need to make sure I'm providing to the board or to the executives?
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And I asked one of my most critical stakeholders, you know, someone who had a very low filter, what they thought about a board deck and they gave me some.
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Of very candid feedback, but the very next time I presented to the board and I looked across the table and I was looking at this particular stakeholder, he said. You nailed it and it was because I did the things that he gave me feedback. I wanted to be self aware.
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I wanted to know where I needed to step up, but again, knowing your audience.
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Knowing why it's important and then of course, preparing for those conversations so that you show up the way that you want to.
00:15:41 Speaker 2
One question I would really love to hear your thoughts on before we start wrapping up is how do you approach building that influence across departments you don't directly oversee? Because I've been hearing a lot about, you know, internal audit and kind of this blurring of the lines as we say in with different departments.
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Whether it's risk or compliance or if you have to work with it on a big project.
00:16:06 Speaker 2
So how did you approach that? And any lessons learned or things you've covered a lot already, but I just wanted to see if you had any new Nuggets for us.
00:16:15 Speaker 3
No, I I I love this question because it really drives the point about like the foundation of you know our partnerships with.
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Stakeholders is how we communicate and when, and I think in those moments, you know, that trust aspect always shows up in the credibility part so.
00:16:39 Speaker 3
You heard me say earlier about, like those relationship maps and you know, building those relationships, so you specifically mentioned like, how do you meet with IT groups that maybe you're not as familiar with and again that goes with building those relationships way before the audit engagement.
00:16:59 Speaker 3
I think that's a mistake that auditor.
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To make if they aren't taking the time to truly understand and know their management teams and their leaders, I know we're all busy, but that pays dividends. Dividends in the end. And at Saint Jude and and we've done, I've done this at at other companies too, but we're focused on those relationships.
00:17:21 Speaker 3
So the relationship mapping discussion involving everybody in the team, it could be.
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You know, it could be informal.
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But you need those types of conversation because it does help navigate like difficult conversations. If you're going to lead through change. We're not starting from scratch. Scratch. We've already established that foundation of trust. And so then we're going to be seeing in a different light. We're somebody who's adding value.
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Who understands their risk, who have already invested time in those relationships?
00:17:55 Speaker 3
So I can't stress how important that is for anyone in any team and and that's where those soft skills really come into play. A lot of times we're behind those screens and you know our data should speak for itself, but the data can't necessarily build those relationships for you.
00:18:15 Speaker 2
Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. So you've already shared so much, but I am going to ask as our closing thought, if you had one piece of advice to give internal auditors, whether they are fresh out of school or you know very experience.
00:18:31 Speaker 2
Who want to start leading more with influence and not just the technical skill? What would that piece of advice be?
00:18:39 Speaker 3
I'd say master the art of storytelling. It sounds cheesy, but our jobs in audit is not just about reporting out the facts, but it's to tell the story behind the facts. Why is it so so important? How do we use our technical skills to gather data?
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And paint this picture.
00:19:01 Speaker 3
That never would have resonated with some of our stakeholders. So you know, a great story. It starts with the details, of course. So you have to sweat the small stuff. You know, you have to earn the trust, you have to build the relationships. That's the small stuff. And then when it's time for you to tell the story.
00:19:21 Speaker 3
A lot of that effort is already done, and if you do it right, it can really make a huge impact on not just your audit, but on the organizing.
00:19:32 Speaker 3
So the most powerful tool we have, you know, isn't always just our audit plan to get things done. But it's it's how we connect with people and how we help them to see the risks that we're trying to mitigate. We're all on the same team.
00:19:48 Speaker 2
Thank you again.
00:19:49 Speaker 3
Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it.
00:19:54 Speaker 1
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00:20:08 Speaker 1
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